Miss California USA appears to be the new golden child of the evangelical Christian world.
During the pageant last week, gay internet columnist Perez Hilton was one of the pre-selected celebrities who asked the contestants questions. Perez is a self-described gay-rights advocate. His asked Carrie Prejean if she thought gay marriage should be legal in all 50 states. Her response was that, “...in my country and in my family, marriage should only be between a man and a woman." There was a split screen and showed Hilton looking down in disgust while Prejean flashed her million dollar smile.
She didn't win and in her Today Show interview the next morning, she said that her "pro-Christian" response probably cost her the title (she came in 2nd). She also said that she was praying for Hilton and that being gay is wrong. Many leaders in the evangelical world say Prejean is a hero for standing up for what she believes. While I certainly applaud her boldness, it's obvious that her response has given the gay community another reason to avoid Christians at any cost.
Many banner-waving Christians don’t seem to want to entertain the idea that maybe what could be more in line with Jesus’ teachings is being friends with gay people, seeking them out, and loving them well. Christian culture can’t seem to see themselves as being as sinful as they perceive homosexuals as being.
The Holy Spirit convicts. God is the judge. Our job is to love.
55 comments:
Hi. I'm a christian, and I have a family member who is gay, so this subject has been, and is of great interest to me. I did follow your blog about baptizing or not baptizing a lesbian couple who had come to the church. Not sure what happened in that case. But, back to the blog about Miss California.
I'm wondering how anyone on this blog thinks she ought to have answered the question?
I certainly want to follow Jesus's example, and pray that my own life would be thought of as pleasing to God in the way I try to follow Christ, and be a witness to others. Thank you for reading this, and look forward to any responses and encouragements. Prayerfully, the Lord will help us all to be and live just the way He wants us to, thanks again in advance.
Pastor Darrin said "I certainly applaud her boldness, it's obvious that her response has given the gay community another reason to avoid Christians at any cost"
So, here is what I'm wondering, how should a christian answer such a yes or no kind of question in a public venue?
I've been wondering this morning about some of the things that Jesus said in regards to Homosexuality. He spoke in no uncertain terms about it, for example ( Mt 11:24* “But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you.”) And, if I'm understanding Jesus correctly, He was saying that the land of Sodom would be judged one day, that is, the people who had lived there and were homosexual in their lifestyle. So, here's what I'm thinking about........Would Perez Hilton have been any easier on Jesus then he was on Miss California? Can anyone comment and share their thoughts?
Also, another question or thought that comes to my mind about all of this, is can a christian who wants to be friends with gay people, should that christian refrain from telling them what Jesus said about the subject?
It is a great relief to know that the Holy Spirit is indeed the one who convicts people, and that God is the judge, and there is no doubt that we are to love people, ( in fact, God commands us to do so ) but, does loving someone mean that you don't answer a direct question when asked? Another way of putting it, would be, does anyone think that Miss California was not being loving in the way she answered Mr Hilton's question?
If she wanted to share the Message in her answer, her starting point should have been "love". Instead, her starting point was political in nature.
Suggested response:
"As a Christian, I am much more interested in how we respond in love to all people - gay people included. Should gay marriage be allowed? In my opinion, marriage is the ultimate covenant that we can make with another person and some states have given choices as to what that looks like. Many gay people are in committed, loving relationships but that doesn't mean that they can't love Jesus or that Jesus doesn't love them. I believe that marriage is between a man and a woman based on my understanding of the Bible. But, I wish that Christians would focus more on loving people instead of condemning them."
Obviously, she didn't have time to formulate an answer like I just did.
Talk of sexual preference and practice combined with Christian views can cause controversy. When a point of view osbcures the reality of what is important, then we have failed to truly show people who God is. This is the reality of Miss California- she revealed to Perez and the people of America who SHE was and not the potential of what Jesus can do "through her". I Wonder how God plans to use her?
I'm not sure what I would say in her situation. Let me kick that one around and post later.
Thanks for the quick reply's. Findservelove said that her response was political....but, wasn't the question political? I went and looked up what Mr Hilton asked her. Hilton asked: "Vermont recently became the fourth state to legalise same-sex marriage. Do you think every state should follow suit. Why or why not?"
But, back to the idea of answering in love, here is another question that comes to mind....Is it unloving to tell the truth? Or to say it differently, wasn't she sharing her opinion truthfully...Is there a separation between love and truth?
Hope you don't mind another question or two in response to your answers here.
Findservelove said " Many gay people are in committed, loving relationships but that doesn't mean that they can't love Jesus or that Jesus doesn't love them. I believe that marriage is between a man and a woman based on my understanding of the Bible. But, I wish that Christians would focus more on loving people instead of condemning them."
When you say when " that doesn't mean that they can't love Jesus" can I ask what or how you would define what it means to love Jesus?
Can anyone reading this blog comment on or help me with the definition of biblical love for Jesus?
What I'm getting at is, is it ok to disobey Jesus and say that we are loving Him at the same time?
Thank you for your thoughts, I'm glad to be able to have this conversation and share my thoughts and questions. I pray that God will help us all to understand what His answers are.
Michelle said....Talk of sexual preference and practice combined with Christian views can cause controversy. When a point of view osbcures the reality of what is important, then we have failed to truly show people who God is. This is the reality of Miss California- she revealed to Perez and the people of America who SHE was and not the potential of what Jesus can do "through her".
Michelle, can you help me here, what if our point of view is in line with the Bible, and we express that point of view, ( that view being the one in the Bible ) are we failing to show people who God is? I'm trying to grasp the thoughts here on the blog about love and truth and how they do or don't go together.
Then, I was thinking as I read your post the words in the book of Jude. I know he was not sharing his opinion, but rather the actual words of God......Thus, I'm genuinely wondering if you think he failed to express God's love by what he said, ( the things he said were pretty to the point if you will ) I've listed his words below. Thanks Michelle ...Bob
3* ¶ Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.
4* For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.
5* But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.
6* And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;
7* as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
8* ¶ Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries.
9* Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”
10* But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves.
11* Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.
12* These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots;
13* raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.
14* Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints,
15* “to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”
Michelle said....Talk of sexual preference and practice combined with Christian views can cause controversy. When a point of view osbcures the reality of what is important, then we have failed to truly show people who God is. This is the reality of Miss California- she revealed to Perez and the people of America who SHE was and not the potential of what Jesus can do "through her".
Michelle, can you help me here, what if our point of view is in line with the Bible, and we express that point of view, ( that view being the one in the Bible ) are we failing to show people who God is? I'm trying to grasp the thoughts here on the blog about love and truth and how they do or don't go together.
Then, I was thinking as I read your post the words in the book of Jude. I know he was not sharing his opinion, but rather the actual words of God......Thus, I'm genuinely wondering if you think he failed to express God's love by what he said, ( the things he said were pretty to the point if you will ) I've listed his words below. Thanks Michelle ...Bob
3* ¶ Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.
4* For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.
5* But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.
6* And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;
7* as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
8* ¶ Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries.
9* Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”
10* But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves.
11* Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.
12* These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots;
13* raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.
14* Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints,
15* “to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”
The question was political but I am suggesting that her response didn't have to be political - or at least start that way. She could have "re-framed" the conversation to place the focus on our primary calling - to love. I think if someone was to ask Jesus whether he was a republican or democrat, he would have said that he was, first and foremost, a lover of people.
As I said, I commend her for sharing her opinion with boldness.
Some of my gay friends say that they love Jesus. In fact, they do better at loving one another than many of my straight friends. Can they love Jesus and knowingly live in sin? Yes. I am a practicing sinner who relies on 1 John 1:9. In my sin, I know that I am loved by God and, although I am sinning, my love for him is real. My love for him is exemplified in my repentance. There are gay people who make a decision to change their lifestyle and when they do, they are exemplifying their love for Jesus. That repentant heart may not surface for years. Does that mean they don't love him before they change? I don't think so. They may be confused, hurt, scared, and frustrated but in their condition, they still cling to the idea that God loves them where they are. Our job is to love them, too. At the same time, we share the share the truth. If they know that they are loved, it's much easier for them to listen.
hey bob read ezk.16:49 to find the real reason that God destroyed Sodom.
Wow, alot to think about.........
As a fellow sinner, I'm right with you on knowing God loves me, even though I sin. I appreciate His forgiveness, and His mercy every day, and throughout the day.
As you mentioned, your love for Him is shown in your repentance....but, how do we respond to someone, who is living the gay lifestyle, and says they love Jesus, but they do not want to repent of their sins? I'm not having any trouble knowing that God loves them, no problem there, my question goes back to definition of loving Jesus. I do know He said, ( Joh 14:15* “If you love Me, keep My commandments.)
So, by His definition, there is at least an expectation on His part of love being connected with obedience. So, if a gay person who says, I"m a christian, but does not want to obey Jesus, are they loving Him?
And, I'm with you on christians who are struggling with sin, over and over again, and slowly growing and so on.....but, I'm trying to reconcile this scenario of people who do not want to repent, but say they love Jesus. What would you say to them. Look forward to your response.....Bob
Do you think maybe both reasons are true......the ones given in Eze, and the ones in Jude?
Is it an either or, or an and kind of thing?
I was raised in a church that taught sin was not measured by God. It just is. God is. Sin is.
Humans are the people that break each one down, because with each sin comes a level of hurt to self, or others, depending on the sin. Once hurt enters the picture....watch out. I do believe the number one reason people don't forgive is hurt and anger. Anger actually is hurt but that is a whole different topic.
Now, enter Jesus. Helps with forgiveness. Don't break the sin down. It just is, and each person will find there way, through the holy spirit, on how to deal with it. Our role in each person's life is to remind them of who they are, without their sin. That is my way of loving Jesus.
Michelle, I genuinely appreciate your comments, they are very encouraging and thought provoking.......Here's what comes to my mind in response to your last post...
Would you say that sin is spoken of as simply sin, and that God does define specific sins? Rom 1 for example, 1st Cor 6, Gal 5, Eph 4 and so on.....
It's just coming to my mind, that God does actually get very specific about listing sins. So, just that comment on specific's versus sin in general.
As to our role being to remind them of who they are without sin and so on, I think I understand your intent, and the desire to show grace, and to be loving and kind, but what comes to mind is what the Holy Spirit does when He convicts people. If you take David for example, when Nathan came to him, in love, he pointed out to him the sin of murder and adultery. And David admitted it. And, the Holy Spirit convicts people of the sin of unbelief and so on.
Then, I'm thinking of Jesus Himself, when He overthrew the tables in the temple, He was very specific in naming the sins of those people.
Then, I'm thinking of the entire OT, and Deut and all of the sins that the Lord wanted His people to avoid..
Anyways, I've sure enjoyed the thoughts back and forth. Thank you for your kindness and your encouraging attitude.
Bob, in one of your earlier posts you asked what Jesus meant by loving him. Jesus answers this in John 14: 15 “If you love me, you will obey what I command.” The difficulty in Jesus’ response is to understand and to interpret what he has commanded. Certainly he has commanded that we love God and our neighbor as ourselves. But this may mean different things in different cultures and at different times throughout history. Ours is a moving target. The Bible seems to indicate that each generation is responsible in its own way for its understanding of how truth is to be practiced. You asked the question “…is it ok to disobey Jesus and say that we are loving Him at the same time?” My response is no that is not okay. But this conversation is about loving people, and if we fail to do that we fail to keep his commandment. There is a tension in all of these responses, and all of us blogging feel it deeply. We are required to deal with our cultural problems out of a deep sense of love for God and love for one another. We are all wrestling with how to do that. I think that is why FindServeLove has suggested we try and be highly sensitive in the way we answer certain cultural questions. It’s really all we can do if we truly desire to point to him as the Lord and Savior of the world.
Hi Dan. Glad to think these things through with you.
In reading your post, I was thinking that the commands Jesus talked about, would most likely include the things He had already taught the disciples.
Dan, can you help me understand what you mean when you say that "this may mean different things in different cultures etc"?
I've heard this kind of thing mentioned over the last couple of years, and am not sure where that idea comes from.
May I ask if this is an idea that Jesus has taught you from His Word, or has it come to you by reading books and so on? I'm just not familiar with this kind of thing in my own reading of the Bible. I would appreciate you directing me to the Bible passages if you have any.
May the Lord help us all to be effective in walking in His will.
Thanks Dan. Bob
Yes, I understand what you mean about lists of sin in the Bible.
Knowing sin and listing them are one thing, but when we start to categorize them as to who is sinning "against" God more, that is measuring. That leads to judgement, and ultimately hate. I am human and there are several sins I hold as "worse" than others, only because it really hurts other people. Other sins, I view as sin that people have to work on between themselves and God.
I think a good way to look at sin is to keep track of our own. Remember what we have struggled with and are currently struggling with, and lend a hand to those that might need help. If they don't want help, OK. When they do, they will know where to go for comfort and understanding.
Love first, teach second. Most of the time you will probably end up doing them at the same time!
Michelle, this has been quite a back and forth of sharing. Thank you for your time and responses.
As to what leads to "judgment", I'm thinking from my own reading of the Bible, that to condemn someone is not being like Jesus. As far as I've been able to understand, that condemnation means to write someone off. I do know the Bible does not teach that at all, and Jesus was not sent to condemn anyone.
Joh 3:17* “For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
But, as I understand it, judgment, or discernment and being able to distinguish truth from error, light from darkness and so on, is encouraged and discernment is acutally a gift from God.
1Jo 4:1* Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
So, I'm thinking that judgment is not actually hating someone in the way it's taught in the Bible. It could very well help that person out, if others tried to share the truth with them.
In fact, Paul even said, Ga 4:16* Have I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth?
But, be that as it may, your post also makes me think about what Paul said to the Corinthians when he admonished them to exercise what we have come to call church discipline.
1Co 5:5* deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
So, at least in that case there in Corinth, the church members were to involve themselves in dealing with sin in the church. I have found it to be a difficult thing to do, but as I understand it, the point was, that if they did not deal with sin, it would spread and affect the whole church.
1Co 5:6* Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump?
1Co 5:7* Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.
1Co 5:8* Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
Ga 5:9* A little leaven leavens the whole lump.
Michelle, I could not agree with you more about keeping track of our own sin. Like the time when Jesus asked the men,
Joh 8:7* So when they continued asking Him, He raised Himself up and said to them, “He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first.”
The other thing Jesus said to her always takes my breath away, in the sense of reminding me of who the Lord is.....
Joh 8:11* She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said to her, “Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more.”
He did not mince any words with her, but spoke to her lovingly.
Lord, please help me to be more like Jesus.
Bob
I like comments and verses that encourage me to think. Your post and all the verses regarding leavening reminded me of the time I ate a twinkie in the fourth grade. Now, I hadn't just been like any normal fourth grade girl enjoying a twinkie. I had sinned on two levels. One, I ate lard (like from a pig that didn't chew it's cud) and second, it was the days of unleavended bread where I was being churched.
A ten year old girl thinking she is going to hell for eating a hostess delight? What the churh failed to TEACH me, THROUGH love is that Christ came to do away with all that stuff.
I am not a theological genius and will never claim to be one. But I probably know more about the Bible than I give myself credit. I do love God and want as much as you to show others the best way how to enjoy Him in my life. Twinkies and all.
As far as the speaking the truth. I read C.S. Lewis Mere Christianity recently. Good read and answers a lot of the same questions we are asking ourselves here. I believe combining literature from different aspects like theology, psychology, sociology, etc will properly equip us to tell the truth of Gods word. The Bible is the Word, but the other bits of information that we gather along the way might help us with our delivery of the Word.
Hey Bob the way I read Jude 1:7
"indulged in gross immorality and (Y)went after strange flesh,"NSB
And Ezk.16:49
49"Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had (A)arrogance, (B)abundant food and (C)careless ease, but she did not help the (D)poor and needy. NSB
is that it arrogance of the heart that led to gross immorality.Just like the gross immorality that produced the Christ on the cross.My point is that sin starts with the heart.So maybe based on that idea was Miss America answering the question with a humble heart.I say yes.But I don't know for sure because I am not God.But on the other hand Mr.Hilton seem to display a hard heart by calling her a "f---n mother dog" on his blog.But again I can't be sure because I am not God.
Hello Anonymous.
I'm not quite sure I understand your posting, can you give it another shot? Thanks. Bob
Thank you Bob, I’ve always heard that “great minds think alike,” however, I’m not so sure that holds in this case. We seem to be a little far apart on this one. I would be more than happy to banter with you, and maybe we will both get a better understanding of the Scriptures. But my initial response, based on the way you frame your inquiries, is to think that you have a feigned interest in this topic. However, I’m going to attempt to dialog because it gives the benefit of the doubt.
Your question is a good one, and seeks to understand what I mean by the statement that loving God and loving our neighbor as ourselves may mean different things in different cultures. Actually, there is a good working model of this. If you examine the Amish community compared to their secular equivalent, the Mennonite Brethren, or even the more secular Evangelical community you will find many varying perspectives. All of these have widely differing views of what it means to love God and love your neighbor when applied to cultural situations. Barn-Raising, for example, works in the Amish culture but would have little value in downtown Visalia.
I would argue that the Bible’s principles when applied to cultural phenomena often have the effect of making some behaviors more puzzling, than it does less puzzling—the Apostle Paul’s fashion tips to women maybe of some illustration here. Sometimes, and perhaps because of the paradoxical nature of the Gospel message, when Biblical morality is applied there may be less clarity, and not more clarity. Think, for example, of the woman who was brought before Jesus after being caught in the very act of adultery. The Jews were perfectly correct in their application of the Law of Moses. She should have been stoned to death. But Jesus offers another solution; one they would never have considered. One of comparison “let him among you that is without sin cast the first stone.” He challenges their thinking. They understood this, and one by one slipped away from the scene because it trapped them in their own logic. But in our culture, a culture of narcissism, Jesus’ rationale would not have been understood. It would have been responded to with a vulgar cynicism. Not only would the woman have been stoned, but Jesus would have been run out of town on a rail for trying to defend her. Look what happens to those Christians who try and defend homosexuals.
I think the idea that applications of Biblical principles vary from situation to situation might arise from many of the Biblical narratives themselves. The Scriptures seem to indicate that there are rewards and punishments based on one’s more or less complete knowledge of good and evil. Moses, for example, was dealt with severely for striking the rock, rather than simply speaking to it. A response based on his knowledge of God. The nation of Israel would often complain to God about their treatment while comparing themselves to the heathen around them, who seemed to benefit from God’s blessings. They often complained to God about the unfairness of this. The wider point in all of this is to illustrate that the Bible makes statements like “to whom much is given, much is required” or even in this same verse that “few stripes” and “many stripes” are given based on the information that one holds in the conceptual patterns of their mind. Jesus illustrates this in his parable of the workers who go into the field at different times of the day, and yet, all receive the same pay.
Bob, I’m with FindServeLove on this one. The homosexual life style in our culture needs to be embraced and brought into the church. In another culture, at another time in history, this may not be true. But that is for God to decide.
Good morning Michelle.
Isn't it amazing how we can have what I call "false guilt", and then have "appropriate guilt"
It seems to me, that the less we base our thinking and understanding on the Word of God, the more chance there is, that we will bring rules, ideas, regulations, concepts etc, etc, that really produce "false guilt" and unproductive periods of empty hearts, that is, we miss out on having our hearts filled with God's Love. We are not the only ones to struggle with these things. Paul talked to Timothy about it in his first letter to Timothy.
1st Tim 1:1* ¶ Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ, by the commandment of God our Savior and the Lord Jesus Christ, our hope,
2* To Timothy, a true son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
3* As I urged you when I went into Macedonia--remain in Ephesus that you may charge some that they teach no other doctrine,
4* nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith.
5* ¶ Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith,
I notice that there in verse 5, Paul is talking about the subject we have been trying to understand, i.e "love"
I think Paul was trying to deal with exactly what you shared below.
A ten year old girl thinking she is going to hell for eating a hostess delight? What the churh failed to TEACH me, THROUGH love is that Christ came to do away with all that stuff.
I was struck by your closing comments about "combining etc, " and wondered what your belief is about the Bible, and if I may ask, do you believe it to be God's Word from cover to cover? Or do you see it in some other way. The other question I had, was in relation to your statement "but the other bits of information etc, etc"....
This verse came to mind when I read your comment.
2Pe 1:3* as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue,
So, my question(s) have to do with how you view what has been called the sufficiency of Scripture.
I know that Satan's primary method of operation is to displace the Bible and replace it with something else. He did this in Gen 3 when he questioned the Word of God to Adam and Eve.
And, to be clear, I'm so thankful for the myriad of books that are available by gifted people, who can share their thoughts, experiences and insights with any who will read them. I have a list of books that have over the years had a profound and good effect on my relationship with God.
But, I thought it would be helpful in our blogging, and any future blogging if we do, to just understand how our views of what the Bible is may or may not synchronize.
Well, I pray that you have a great weekend, and are filled with the knowledge of Jesus Christ, and have His mercy, grace and peace in your life and family. Bob
As far as the speaking the truth. I read C.S. Lewis Mere Christianity recently. Good read and answers a lot of the same questions we are asking ourselves here. I believe combining literature from different aspects like theology, psychology, sociology, etc will properly equip us to tell the truth of Gods word. The Bible is the Word, but the other bits of information that we gather along the way might help us with our delivery of the Word.
Dan, thank you for the encouragement that great minds think alike. You are kind and I appreciate your words.
You have shared alot of very detailed thought in your post.
Can we just drop down to your last comment, and ask for clarification?
You said, "Bob, I’m with FindServeLove on this one. The homosexual life style in our culture needs to be embraced and brought into the church. In another culture, at another time in history, this may not be true. But that is for God to decide."
Specifically, what do you mean by "to be embraced and brought into the church"?
Thanks Dan. Bob
Bob, to perhaps understand better you might tell me what you think I mean. That way I’ll have a better idea of how you are processing my words.
Yea Bob I believe its all about the attitude of the heart when God destroys or takes people out.Sodom was destroyed because of their arrogant heart,Jesus was killed because of peoples'arrogant heart. It wasn't the sin,it was their heart.Ezk.16:49.
Sorry if I sound repetitive but I am really into keeping a humble attitude because I had a personal bout with depression.And I believe what caused it was an attitude of self-righteousness.
Sure Dan, no problem. Indeed, I do have an interest in this topic, as I had shared in my initial posting.
But, to try and respond, and explain etc, Embracing could mean, are we to demonstrate a loving and caring attitude towards homosexuals, as we would to any and all.
Or it could mean, that ( as we have been posting yesterday ) that the church accepts homosexuals who confess Christ, want to be baptized, and do not want to repent of their lifestyle?
Hope that clarifies my thoughts, as to what you may or may not mean......
Bob, to perhaps understand better you might tell me what you think I mean. That way I’ll have a better idea of how you are processing my words.
Thank you Bob, I know how difficult feedback can be sometimes. But here’s where the wicket gets sticky—so to speak. Actually, I don’t have any problem with your first definition, or the first half of your second. My difficulty, however, with the last segment of your thinking comes in with the “do not” portion of your ethic. It’s a value that tends to become overemphasized among the self-righteous. It’s pernicious. It sits there like a huge judgmental time-bomb just waiting to explode. It’s actually the crux of this whole discussion. Would you agree?
Is that really what "findservelove" said, Dan? Did "findservelove" say, "The homosexual life style in our culture needs to be embraced and brought into the church. In another culture, at another time in history, this may not be true. But that is for God to decide"?
"Findservelove", I would love to know your thoughts on this.
No Anonymous, FindServeLove did not say that, I did. FindServeLove said “…Christians don’t seem to want to entertain the idea that maybe what could be more in line with Jesus’ teachings is being friends with gay people, seeking them out, and loving them well.”
Dan, I was thinking about these verses in answer to your question. I.E the crux of the matter.
Who could say it better then Jesus.
John3: 14* “And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
15* “that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
16* “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17* “For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18* “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19* “And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20* “For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
21* “But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”
John 3: 35* “The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand.
36* “He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
And after reading all these cool thoughts it all goes back to God is the judge, the Holy Spirit Convicts. We Love.
And a sin, is a sin, is a sin.
People get affected diffently by individual sin, some sin can actually draw you closer to God while you are doing it because the Holy Spirit can be in powerful conviction mode. That same spirit that convicts US, allows US to Love others, in Christ's name. Just takes a whole heck of a lot of humbling to do it sometimes.
It is impossible to give a full and complete theological treatise in a blog. Often many people are speaking about different aspects of an issue.
I love the language of "find, serve, and love." I want that to be the reality and purpose of my life. I want to do this with no strings attached! This is what the Great Commandment is all about. But what do we do with the Great Commission?
My understanding of the Great Commission is to "go and make disciples." In other words, we are to "find, serve, and love", but also "make disciples." My understanding of discipleship is followship and apprenticeship... and we do this with Christ, His ways, His teachings, His values, etc.
The Great Commandment and Great Commission are important together. We cannot separate them. Yes, I want to find, serve, and love... AND model Christlikeness and point people to Christ, teach with LOVE the Bible faithfully, and invite people to become full followers of Jesus Christ, orienting their lives around Him, His Word, and His Kingdom.
Teaching the Bible does not automatically mean judgmentalism or legalism, even though I have seen that modeled much of my life in my conservative, evangelical upbringing, and even did that myself in my early years of following Him. But I have learned through the years that teaching God's Word faithfully can be done with LOVE... and we invite people to follow Christ. YES, it is the Holy Spirit that does the convicting, not me. But He uses the Word, among other things, to bring conviction, repentance, and life transformation.
Jesus loved the woman caught in adultery. He did not condemn her, but He did tell her: ""Go now and leave your life of sin." It is not an either/or, but a both/and.
I love these verses (Romans 2:4; 2 Corinthians 5:14). God's kindness is intended to turn us from our sin and His love compels us.
These are my thoughts. I could be wrong. However, I am just sharing my personal feelings and my understanding of the Word.
God loves us just as we are and nothing can change that! And in His love, He invites us to grow up and mature into His image. Oh yes, it is a journey. It takes time. I am still on that journey. I am growing and maturing, but have so much further to go.
Thanks for all your thoughts on this blog! It challenges me.
Bob, in the verses you’ve quoted I was thinking about something. What do you suppose the word “practicing” means in John 3:20? Do you think it means “with intent” or perhaps the simple act of just “doing?”
Dan, here's what Thayer says in his greek lexicon.
4238 prassw prasso pras'-so
a root word; TDNT - 6:632,927; v
KJV - do 28, commit 5, exact 1, require 1, deed 1, keep 1, use arts 1; 38
1) to exercise, practise, to be busy with, carry on
1a) to undertake, to do
2) to accomplish, perform
2a) to commit, perpetrate
3) to manage public affairs, transact public business
3a) to exact tribute, revenue, debts
4) to act
For Synonyms see entry 5871 & 5911
Thank you Bob, I appreciate that you were interested enough in my question to research the term. Although I must have not made myself clear because I was more interested in how you might interpret the word in this verse. My reason for this is that the way we interpret the Scripture is the way we will practice it regardless of what it may, in fact, say.
Hi Dan. Gotcha on your clarification. Actually, when I'm trying to understand what the Bible means, I do consult Greek Study helps such as Thayers, Strongs etc, etc. So, my own interpretation of Scripture is based upon the normally accepted methods of understanding language. So, based on my understanding of the word practicing, ( looking at the meaning of the word in the greek language, ) I would take it to mean just exactly what the language says it means. Such as to do, commit, exercise, practice and so on. Below is how the Amplified version puts it. In John 3:20-21
John 3:20For every wrongdoer hates (loathes, detests) the Light, and will not come out into the Light but shrinks from it, lest his works (his deeds, his activities, his conduct) be exposed and reproved.
John 3:21But he who practices truth [who does what is right] comes out into the Light; so that his works may be plainly shown to be what they are--wrought with God [divinely prompted, done with God's help, in dependence upon Him].
One of the other principles of understanding the meaning of the Bible is to take it's plain meaning. So, when I look at what Jesus said, it seems to me to simply mean what it seems to say. That is, the normal use of the word practice, or practicing etc.
Also, something that i try to do, is to look for the same concept or principle taught in one place, and see if it's consistent throughout the Bible. This has been called by some, "Expositional Constancy"
So, here are a few other verses along that line.
Dan, God bless you ......Bob
2Pe 2:14* having eyes full of adultery and that cannot cease from sin, enticing unstable souls. They have a heart trained in covetous practices, and are accursed children.
1Jo 2:29* If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.
1Jo 3:7* Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.
Re 22:15* But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
Bob, so if I understand you correctly (and please stop me if I am assuming too much), you think that one is more properly aligned with scriptural teaching if there is an active pursuit of “repentance.” And that repentance manifests itself in some sort of behavioral modification. This modification is primarily exemplified by what one “stops doing.” For example, “I don’t spit, I don’t chew, I don’t go with girls who do.” Whereas Jesus, who is our leader, emphasizes primarily the notion that “by this shall all men know that you are my disciples that you should have love one for another” which, much like the woman caught in the act of adultery, puts a different slant or option on the more widely held “scriptural teaching.” In other words, Bob, I wonder if your Christology accurately interprets the meaning of the wider scriptural imperatives. Can you help me with this?
Dan, You can sure say alot in one sentence. But, let me try and answer you as best I can.
Scripture talks about repentance when it's needed. For example.....
Eze 18:30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord GOD. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin.
Then in the NT...
Re 2:5* “Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place--unless you repent.
Re 3:19* “As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent.
Dan, I'm trying to put myself in the position of the children of Israel, or one of the church's there in Rev, and when God spoke to them about repentance, I'm trying to imagine myself saying to the Lord..... "Do you want me to actually stop doing what I'm doing? " Is that what you mean Lord, for me to stop it, and to change my behaviour?
So, Yes, I believe that when the Lord tells us to stop doing something, we ought to stop it, and that our behaviour, ought to be as John the Baptist said, "fruit's worthy of repentance"
Jesus makes a connection between His love, and His call for us when needed to repent.
I'm thinking also Dan, of a husband who is living in adultery, and is found out by his wife, and she asks him to stop it and change his ways. Do you think she means to actually change his behaviour?
Dan, to use the Biblical ref you referenced, i.e the woman caught in adultery, do you think that when Jesus said, go and sin no more, that He wanted her to change her behaviour?
There was a post by Scott yesterday that brought this area of thinking up. Thank You Scott.
Dan, are you familiar with the term "antinomianism"? The view you are espousing seems to be of that strain of thinking.
As Scott mentioned yesterday, no one can say everything on a blog, or in a sentence or two.
But, Jesus did say this about the power of His life in us.........
Joh 8:32* “And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
There are many folks who fall into different camps when it comes to the questions surrounding grace, and the effect of it in our lives. Many books have been written on the various sides of the issue.
But, to try and sum up what I believe, it would include the following...
No christian ever stops sinning.....
Every christian ought to stop sinning when they know they are sinning.
Jesus loves us, and talks to us about our sin, and actually will chasten us as well.
Sinning will one day be over for us, but in the meantime, the Lord helps us with it.
David the Psalmist talked about changing his behaviour after he murdered and committed adultery. He wanted to be a different man.
Jesus said alot about repentance, and the book of Rev talks alot about repentance.
Re 2:5* “Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place--unless you repent.
Re 2:16* ‘Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth.
Re 2:21* “And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent.
Re 2:22* “Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds.
Re 3:3* “Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.
Re 3:19* “As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent.
Re 9:20* But the rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, and idols of gold, silver, brass, stone, and wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk.
Re 9:21* And they did not repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts.
Re 16:9* And men were scorched with great heat, and they blasphemed the name of God who has power over these plagues; and they did not repent and give Him glory.
Re 16:11* They blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and did not repent of their deeds.
Dan, in answer to your last question.........
In other words, Bob, I wonder if your Christology accurately interprets the meaning of the wider scriptural imperatives. Can you help me with this?
My answer would be, Yes according to my interpretation, but no according to yours.
We differ on what the wider scriptural imperatives are.
Thanks Dan..
Thank you, Bob, for your candor. I’ll try and say less with my sentences, if I can. I do want to keep you in the loop. You seem to be a “Bible verse” kind of guy, so I thought maybe you’d more easily understand my point if I responded with a little less logic and a lot more Scripture. As I said in one of my earlier posts, I kind of thought we were pretty far apart on this one. It’s too bad because I was hoping that “loving God and loving others” would be our dominant theme. I’ve always thought that for sexual sins, and pretty much all other types, Jesus’ encounter with the adulterous woman served as a good model for our response to those kinds of crisis.
I’ve always believed that when the Lord tells us to stop doing something we should make our best effort. The difficulty with me, and I think with many other Christians like myself, is that there is a great deal of frustration in this effort. It is at this point I identify strongly with the Apostle Paul in the book of Romans.
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.Anyhow I think you get my point. For me it is all about thanking God for His grace through Jesus Christ. There is, however, an even wider understanding when you consider Jesus’ teaching of the debtor.
Then Peter came to him and asked, “Lord, how often should I forgive someone who sins against me? Seven times?” “No, not seven times,” Jesus replied, “but seventy times seven! “Therefore, the Kingdom of Heaven can be compared to a king who decided to bring his accounts up to date with servants who had borrowed money from him. In the process, one of his debtors was brought in who owed him millions of dollars. He couldn’t pay, so his master ordered that he be sold—along with his wife, his children, and everything he owned—to pay the debt. “But the man fell down before his master and begged him, ‘Please, be patient with me, and I will pay it all.’ Then his master was filled with pity for him, and he released him and forgave his debt. “But when the man left the king, he went to a fellow servant who owed him a few thousand dollars. He grabbed him by the throat and demanded instant payment. “His fellow servant fell down before him and begged for a little more time. ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it,’ he pleaded. But his creditor wouldn’t wait. He had the man arrested and put in prison until the debt could be paid in full. “When some of the other servants saw this, they were very upset. They went to the king and told him everything that had happened. Then the king called in the man he had forgiven and said, ‘You evil servant! I forgave you that tremendous debt because you pleaded with me. Shouldn’t you have mercy on your fellow servant, just as I had mercy on you?’ Then the angry king sent the man to prison to be tortured until he had paid his entire debt. “That’s what my heavenly Father will do to you if you refuse to forgive your brothers and sisters from your heart.”God through Jesus Christ has found a way to give us a pass. That we should insist that others pay what they owe is completely out of sync with Jesus’ teaching. This is also the place where I think an accurate Christology tempers the more harsh teachings of the Scripture (as in the story of the woman who was taken in the act of adultery and should have been stoned according to the Laws of Moses i.e. the Scripture). It is also the reason why I think homosexuals should be taken into the Christian community, offered the Eucharist and Baptism, and instructed in what it means to live in a faithful and loving relationship with Jesus Christ. It’s His Church, Bob, not ours, and we are told that “the gates of hell will not prevail against it.”
In my view, Bob, it’s about loving God and loving one another. I think I’m in pretty good company when I say this because the Apostle makes it very clear that “If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am become sounding brass, or a clanging cymbal. And if I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. And if I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and if I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profiteth me nothing.”
It seems to me, Bob, that if I fail to do this, I may need to repent.
Your brother, always in Christ, Dan
Dan, you failed.....Just joking.....You said you would say alot less.
Bob
Dan, I sure identify with Paul in Rom 7, as you said you do, and I think any born again believer.
I do have to say though, that you closing comments about bringing into the church practicing homosexuals and so on make me think about why Paul would encourage the church at Corinth to remove from it's fellowship the man who was in an incestuous relationship with his stepmother.
Can you please comment on why on the one hand we would allow certain behaviours, but then be instructed from Scripture to remove others?
Thanks Dan. Bob
Bob, I think I answered this question earlier in the blog. It’s okay if you don’t remember because these discussions tend to get long and arduous, and if I forget something you’ve said, I’d like you to extend to me the same flexibility. I said “The homosexual life style in our culture needs to be embraced and brought into the church. In another culture, at another time in history, this may not be true. But that is for God to decide.” I don’t think this is a difficult concept to comprehend, since as Christians we tend to pick and choose many of the laws we do and do not want to live by. Look, for example, at all the dietary laws and the divorce rate among Christians. Again, I would go back to the illustration of the woman caught in the act of adultery. Moses’ law commanded that she be stoned. But when the incident is seen through the eyes of Christ, it is modified. Paul obviously felt his solution was accurate for the Corinthian Christians. He was probably right in doing so, but I’m not sure if he was “right” for all time and in every culture.
Dan, here is one of your quotes.....
"It is also the reason why I think homosexuals should be taken into the Christian community, offered the Eucharist and Baptism...."
I was just asking you the following "I do have to say though, that you closing comments about bringing into the church practicing homosexuals and so on make me think about why Paul would encourage the church at Corinth to remove from it's fellowship the man who was in an incestuous relationship with his stepmother.
Can you please comment on why on the one hand we would allow certain behaviours, but then be instructed from Scripture to remove others?
Dan, these are the other things you said " In another culture, at another time in history, this may not be true. But that is for God to decide.” I don’t think this is a difficult concept to comprehend, since as Christians we tend to pick and choose many of the laws we do and do not want to live by. Look, for example, at all the dietary laws and the divorce rate among Christians. Again, I would go back to the illustration of the woman caught in the act of adultery. Moses’ law commanded that she be stoned. But when the incident is seen through the eyes of Christ, it is modified. Paul obviously felt his solution was accurate for the Corinthian Christians. He was probably right in doing so, but I’m not sure if he was “right” for all time and in every culture."
When you say this is for God to decide, you are saying, at least as I understand it, that we may not know what God may or may not decide about the issue. I would suggest that His Word, in the Bible is in fact, His will made known to us.
It does concern me that You seem to remove God's will from His Word, and then, that some things in the Bible may be for one time but not another.
I do appreciate the fact, that we are expressing ourselves, and do have differences.
I also find it a blessing to think about what's being said, and look to Scripture, and the consistent teaching in Scripture on any given point, and then take comfort in that being God's Mind and Word to us about these things.
God bless You Dan. Bob
Thank you for your concern. You are right in one sense Bob; I do not know what goes on in the mind of God. I would agree with you that the Bible is indeed his will made known to us. But there is more, “…that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them. For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity…” And there is less, “my thoughts are higher than your thoughts.”
I know that in my life I am often surprised by his will. The only thing that I can “know” (and it depends what you mean by this word) is that he has assured us that by the power of his Holy Spirit he will lead us into all truth. This is why I have suggested that ours is a moving target. We must follow God, not try and lead him. He is God, we are not. This is what each of us at Crossroads is trying to do, and that is to follow our Lord Jesus Christ as he leads.
Hi Dan, thanks again for the comments, and explanations.....to try and sort out in my mind what you were saying in your last post, here are your quotes.........
#1.
The Mind of the Lord is unsearchable. Agreed.
1Co 2:16* For “who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.
Ro 11:33* Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!
#2.
The Bible is indeed His will made known to us. Agreed.
2Ti 3:16* All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
Therefore, we can take the Bible, to be the will of God for our lives, and we can abide in it, and follow the Word, etc, etc. The Word tells us what God's will is.
#3.
But there is more. Dan, can I challenge you here. Would you mind going back to Rom 1, which is where the passage below is taken from, and read it in it's context. You are saying that this passage represents something more from God, and therefore places other things about God's will outside of or above, or in addition to His Word, and His will revealed in His Word.
Dan, I have to say that most people understand the Rom passages as explaining that God has placed a certain knowledge of Himself, ( it's called natural revelation ) inside of every human being, so that they have some sense of Him and His existence. Thus no man can honestly say that he does not believe in the existence of God, for God has already put that knowledge within man.
You were interpreting this passage as to say it's something above and or outside of man, I believe it's just the opposite Dan. I believe if you read it in it's context, you would have to agree with what was just said about it's meaning.
#4.
The "my thoughts passage" is in my understanding the one that does indeed help us understand, that while we may have the Mind and will of God in His Word,
He is still more then we can know, He is higher then we are etc, etc. Gosh, there is no doubt about that.
#5
As to the only thing I can know, and ( it depends on what I mean by the word ) well, the word know is used in the context of what we are talking about to simply mean know, in the normal sense of the word. We can know on a very personal level, that is, we know that we know that we know. And, we can know on purely an intelectual level.
If you go through the book of 1st John, you will see both of those meanings used there. A deep personal knowing by experience within, and a knowing in the mind of what facts are.
And, yes, thank God we do have that assurance of the role of the Holy Spirit in leading us into all truth. Once again, not the truth that is beyond us, but the truth that has been revealed to us, i.e the mind and will of God in His Word.
#6.
We must follow God etc, etc . Yes, amen, and amen. I like to say "you can sum up the entire Bible in two word" FOLLOW ME.
Dan, may the Lord bless you, and your fellow followers there at Crossroads. May the Holy Spirit continue to direct you, and feed you from God's precious Word.
We agree on that point Dan.
May He keep you today, give you abundant grace, and peace. In Jesus name, amen.......
We must follow God, not try and lead him. He is God, we are not. This is what each of us at Crossroads is trying to do, and that is to follow our Lord Jesus Christ as he leads.
Bob, on your point number three, I’m not sure if by “read it in context” you don’t really mean “read it the way I read it.” The “knowledge of God” is an understanding that occurs at so many different levels; I’m not convinced that a person can say there is knowledge that is of more value inside as opposed to outside of God or Mankind. Certainly you are aware of the Apostle’s argument when it comes to his illustration of the order of Melchizedek. Bob, who and what God is in essence, we can never know. He is infinite, we are finite. The knowledge of God is an ever expanding understanding of who he is. It is also on many levels. Philippians expresses this: “That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death…” Anyhow, that’s my take on it.
Dan, actually, I was trying to say what I meant. Read it in it's context. And of course, I have my own mind and understanding about what I think it means. As do you on anything you are talking about.
But, the context comment, was meant to simply help understand the passage you were quoting. It's commonly accepted in Biblical interpretation to not take a text, out of it's context, because often the context sheds immense light on the meaning of the text. So, that's all I meant and intended Dan.
Since we have established that questions are not all bad in and of themselves, and that my intention is not to classify you, or be divisive, can I ask again, about your view of Scripture.......
Do you regard the Bible as being completely inspired by God, from cover to cover, being the authoritative inerrant Word of God?
I thought if I knew where you stood on this, it would help me in the future, to understand what you believe etc, etc........
Thanks Dan......I'll wait to hear from you. Bob
Bob, do you really think that you can know a person’s beliefs by their position on inspiration and inerrancy? Do you think it is their beliefs you will know, or just a category they will fit into, in your own mind?
Hi Dan. Well, I won't ask again, I was just genuinely interested to know your belief.
You are reading alot into my question. I simply wanted to know what you believe about the Bible. I was not asking what you believe about anything else, just about the Bible.
But, to answer the questions you have posed, let me say, that if a person does not believe in the inerrancy of the Bible, then, I would simply say they do not that's all.
An, no, I would not say I can know a person's beliefs based on their position on inerrancy.
Therefore, in answer to your last question, I guess I would only say they either do or don't believe in inerrancy.
Thank you Dan.....Bob
Bob, I am struck by your use of logic here. “If a person does not believe in the inerrancy of the Bible” and “then, I would simply say they do not that's all” How is the question important enough to answer or even ask? How is it relevant? Isn’t it moot?
And further, if you would say “I can [not] know a person's beliefs based on their position on inerrancy” and that “I guess I would only say they either do or don't believe in inerrancy” The same question above applies. But also why would you make the statement “I thought if I knew where you stood on this, it would help me in the future, to understand what you believe etc, etc........” Maybe you are just tired and this discussion has exhausted you. I certainly understand and would recommend that, perhaps, you take a little nap. These concepts do often get fatiguing. But if you’ve got caffeine coursing through your veins like I do, perhaps you’d like to take another stab at sorting this one out.
Dan, I believe it is pleasing to God to believe Him, and to believe in His Word. If indeed the Word of God is His Word, then, based on what the Bible itself says about belief, I think that answers the first question you have raised.
Belief in the Bible would seem according to the Bible to be about the most relevant belief one could have......
And, as to your other statement, starting with "And further etc......I am not able to know based on the one belief or lack thereof to know what a person might believe on any other issues....that's pretty clear to me.
And, as to your other statement, starting with "But also why etc......knowing if you do believe in the inerrancy of the Bible would indeed help me to know as we proceed with other discussions. For example, if you do not believe in the inerrancy of the Bible, then, we are starting with two different bases of authority. Mine would be the Word, yours would be something else, and some other idea or belief system.
Not tired of the discussion, but like a guy who asks a girl out for a date once or twice and she says no, he ought to give it a rest. Which I will do, since you are not interested in answering the question.
It's very sorted out in my own mind Dan. I just don't know about yours. I.E I do believe in the inerrancy of the Bible, I just don't know if you do.
Your call Dan. Thanks Bob
Thanks for your response, Bob. Sorry to disappoint, and I’m not the girl you think I should be. I do, however, think that it is pleasing to God to believe in him. Since his Word has become flesh and dwelt among us, I think from some of my earlier statements you could probably gather that I consider that it is quite important to believe also in his Son, although I do question your statement that a belief in inerrancy necessarily implies that we start from two different bases of authority. I’m not so certain that mine is “something else” if it is not what you think it ought to be. I’m not so sure that belief in inerrancy is ground zero for any metaphysic. I’m glad you have these things sorted in your mind.
Dan, I'm not disappointed, just not asking the question again.
I would have no idea about your position Dan, as you have chosen not to answer the question. Or to say it as you put it, that your position is not not what I think it ought to be, again, I have no idea of what your position is Dan.
I would say, that one thing I do know is, that I've never met or talked with anyone who would not answer the question about how they view Scripture. Most people I've spoken to in my life, either say yes, no, or I don't know. No one has ever taken so much time to give a non answer, and raise so many other issues and questions in response. So, a new experience for me.
I've asked you a few other questions, none of which you have responded to. So, at this point, I think we are probably done, don't you think. Well, that was another question, sorry.
Just joking Dan.
Have a great evening Dan. Bob
Well Bob, I hope it’s been something you can use. If for no other reason than to say you’ve met someone who is not not in your camp. I am kind of sorry the debate is even necessary among those of us who call ourselves Christian, but I have a feeling that you will probably begin to meet more Christians that do not want to be pigeonholed. Perhaps you’d better brace yourself. It’s tough to categorize those who refuse to be categorized. Pilot was probably pretty much in the same place when he asked Jesus what is truth, and Jesus, who is truth incarnate refused to answer him. Our Lord teaches us to sometimes not answer, but to allow people to figure things out for themselves.
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